Thanks to media mass hysteria about the perfectly safe MMR vaccine we’re losing herd immunity.
Thanks guys, thanks a fucking bunch.
(PS if anyone can get me the number of newspaper articles on the subject it’d make an interesting mashup – I’ve only found out 122 for 1998; and 1257 for 2002)
(Edit: Many many thanks to Tom, here’s an updated graph)
Note that great big red line crashing down to almost zero? That’s the number of rubella cases dropping thanks to MMR. Don’t worry though, rubella cases are rising again. Oh, and I couldn’t fit mumps in because of the 43,000 cases in 2005.
November 28th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Multiple studies have given plenty of evidence that there was no link and only one (flawed) study has ever shown that some bloke thought there could be a link yet comics like the Daily Express (http://tinyurl.com/keyboardbashers) keep printing stories where the word evidence is put in quotation marks. Do you really want to trust the health of your child to what the Daily Fucking Express say? I doubt any of their knuckle dragging hacks have a medical degree or even the ability to read a simple medical paper.
November 28th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Have you asked on the BadScience.net forums? http://www.badscience.net/forum/ Ben at Bad Science has been following the MMR debacle since inception, so I’m sure that the people on the forums would be able to help with the question about number newspaper articles over the last decade.
November 28th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
1200 cases? is that nationally? that would have been in one county when we were kids. nothing wrong with getting a disease once in a while. recently at a local school in bristol theres been a case of scarlet fever.
November 29th, 2008 at 3:20 am
Yes Mike, let’s have some good old-fashioned smallpox about the place, and how about a bit of diptheria too, just for good measure? Oh, tell you what, here’s a jolly old jape, let’s scrap those horrid old pneumovax and Hib/Men vaccines – you know, they only save a couple of thousand lives a year. That’ll keep us nice and healthy!
I assume you’re aware that measles is usually accompanied by common side effects: anything from diarrhoea to corneal ulceration to encephalitis? And what about the death rate of one in a thousand (or 1 in 30 for people with poor immune systems)?
I’d like to see how much extra strain the NHS could cope with if nobody were vaccinated against these diseases. I’m assuming you’re happy to let your tax money go to that?
Tell you what Mike, give me your email address and I’ll send you some information on the after effects in people who are lucky enough to survive pneumococcal and meningococcal infections because they were never vaccinated.
Oh yes, and if you care to read the graph you’ll see that it’s about 1050 cases in England and Wales. But given the content of your comment, I’m surprised you read much more than the words “hysteria” and “MMR” before thrashing out a misinformed response.
Now go away and read some books.
December 3rd, 2008 at 2:16 pm
[...] *EXPLETIVE DELETED* stupid provides us with a graph to show how the number of measles cases have exploded since the MMR [...]
December 10th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
There is a much more detailed article about MMR on badscience.net – well worth a read, especially the link to the Bustin report (if you enjoy reading about lab techniques!)
http://www.badscience.net/2008/12/its-not-my-fault-i-fall-into-repetitive-self-parody-you-started-it/
December 10th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
What’s brilliant is that if you told Mike that the serious effects of measles were the side effects of some drug or vaccine, he’d probably be outraged and call for it to banned. But because it’s a “natural” virus, who cares if a few people get permanantly damaged eh?
December 11th, 2008 at 12:44 am
please ask HEATHER MILLS never to write on science issues again…..http://briandeer.com/wakefield/private-eye.htm
December 11th, 2008 at 6:35 am
People die from measles, Mike. People are disabled by it. And it’s easily prevented by a well-tested, safe vaccine.
Really, there’s “nothing wrong” with that to you?
December 11th, 2008 at 8:53 am
Mike, while measles is indeed unpleasant, the likeliehood of a rise in rubella cases causes me even greater anxiety. Rubella infection in pregnant women has a high probability of causing serious birth defects to her baby (over 40% in the early stages of fetal development). The symptoms of the disease may be mild in adults, and in some cases are not even detected, meaning that the infected person can put others at risk unknowingly. The damage frequently includes deafness, blindness and impairment of mental function. There is a dreadful irony in campaigners who seek to protect babies by opposing vaccination actually promoting real harm instead.
December 11th, 2008 at 9:51 am
In case anyone was fooled by that Daily Mail style capitalization, it’s not *THAT* Heather Mills.
December 11th, 2008 at 10:04 am
with the evidence mounting that reduced vaccine uptake caused the increase in measles cases, does the NHS have a case to sue journalists for putting the public’s health at risk? Seems to me that there would be some mileage in bringing a case to court, even if all it did was embarrass the hacks concerned and lead to a legal dead-end…
December 11th, 2008 at 10:15 am
@Teek
Oh [insert fictional bieng] I hope they do. It’d be good entertainment at least!
December 11th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Who is responsible for your advertising? or is this a joke at the top of your page:
# Autism Detoxification
Safe, Gentle for Kids Scientifically Proven Detox
http://www.detoxamin.com
?wtf?
December 11th, 2008 at 11:26 am
everyone should read Ben Goldacre’s Bad Science book (as well as articles/website) – If I was a parent whose kids caught measles off some other flatearther who believed the daily express editor, I would sue them all (truth in advertising – I have 3 kids – ALL have had MMR).
there’s being cautious, and there is being ignorant. journalists have a duty to promote caution, not ignorance and should be responsible if there are consequences (which there now are).
December 11th, 2008 at 11:53 am
@Temac
Well, hazarding a completely wild guess, I’d assume that the “ads by Google” bit means that the ads are by some company called Google.
Bit of a shot in the dark, I know, but I’m no Sherlock Holmes.
Now go away and learn to read.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Well here are the figures for newspaper articles mentioning MMR in the UK. It comes from the factiva database, which may differ from other sources but is at least consistent throughout those years:
YEAR MENTIONS OF MMR
1996 17
1997 36
1998 180
1999 264
2000 298
2001 1344
2002 2675
2003 1495
2004 1442
2005 728
2006 694
2007 547
2008 549
December 11th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Try Google Trends: gives hit rates based on number of searches.
December 11th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
@Andy
It wasn’t amazingly useful, but it was amusing that the town with the largest number of searches is in Surrey
http://www.google.com/trends?q=mmr
Not that I’m suggesting for a moment that declining the MMR vaccination is in any way a middle class fad…
December 11th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
@Tom
Thank you very much for your help, I’ll do some fiddling and update the article!
December 15th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
People comment on the measles and Rubella side effects but nobody seems to comment on Mumps.
These can include abortion, deafness, pancreatitis, Meningitis and if i remember correctly sterility in males.
I doubt my memory is good enough to have covered them all either.
Regarding Mikes comment near the top, one thing i would say is that kids grow up in too sterile an environment….i’m talking about all the household sprays that kill 99.9% of all known germs etc….how are you supposed to build up an immunity to enything in that sort of environment? Other than that….dumbass!
December 15th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
[...] that allowed Tom to give Sensibly Common the statistics that he had been searching for regarding MMR articles. There is a little caveat to that though, and that is for people like this guy, who decided to [...]
December 16th, 2008 at 9:25 am
[...] Graph of measles cases in the UK As the ill-informed (in fact just plain wrong) hysteria about vaccines continues, measles cases [...]
December 25th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
The fault is the Governments 100% for not providing single jabs for the parents that pay for NHS out of their taxes and want them as a safer option.
If the Gov really cared about a measles outbreak thye would supply them so they are playing political games with MMR.
Bullying parents into having dangerous jabs and not supplying safer single ones is backfiring and it down to new labour MMR games.
Dont blame the parents blame the Government.
December 29th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Dear Andrew,
MMR IS NOT DANGEROUS. IT NEVER HAS BEEN. WAKEFIELD’S TECHNIQUES WERE FLAWED.
Now read your comment again, think, then come back and say sorry for not having engaged your brain in the first place.
Best wishes and merry xmas,
SC xx
February 6th, 2009 at 9:15 am
[...] Here’s an update on the number of measles cases: [...]
February 12th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
I’d be interested in a version of the graph with the mumps data thrown in… Use a log plot to get it to fit and still be reasonably understandable.
February 13th, 2009 at 12:08 am
Use a log scale. Can fit in data that are varying in orders of magnitude.
May 17th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
I take great offence at you using the term herd immunity, these are children and babies, not cows and calves. (before you jump down my throat i know that is the term used, it’s just very offensive).
The MMR was first used widespread in Nov 1988, the first case of a parent saying their child had changed and linked it to the MMR was in Jan/Feb 1989. Coincidence? In Japan, when the first few parents said they thought there was a connection, the MMR was withdrawn, they take the view that it’s what’s best for the individual, not what’s best for society. Since it’s withdrawl, the cases of autism have dropped dramatically.
Experts say, it’s at around 15 months, the symptoms of autism are noticed and that Coincidently is the time of the mmr, WRONG, it is around the age of 15 months that a parent starts thinking their child should be doing this and doing that, these children with acquired autism have passed all their milestones and start to regress, THAT is the difference. Oh and children with acquired autism tend to have severe bowel problems and disease, this is not a common condition in ‘natural’ autism.
Someone said ”Multiple studies have given plenty of evidence that there was no link and only one (flawed) study has ever shown that some bloke thought there could be a link” There have in fact been NO STUDIES WHAT SO EVER done, you cannot find me any studies at all because the only studies done were on adults and were not done for long enough for any significant results to come from it.
And i bet none of you have read the Mary Scanlon report on the MMR-Autism investigation??
If you have then you will know that there MUST have been something found and it was quickly covered up.
I’ll get off of my soap box now or i’ll be here for hours, i am the mother of a boy with acquired autism and i know 100% it was the MMR which caused the autism
May 17th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Oh and the person having a go at Andrew Wakefield, you know nothing about him and his work, i have met him twice and been to seminars of his, he techniques are not flawed, you have just been reading what they say in the papers, in stories the government issue probably.
All i can say is, watch this space
May 18th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Well, FrMaWhatever, let me put it this way (sorry about the lack of logical ordering here)
1. Seeing as you’re going to make yourself sound like an idiot, I may as well treat you like one.
2.i. Here’s a detailed paper explaining why the O’Leary / Uhlmann / Wakefield experiment contained contaminants.
http://www.badscience.net/wp-content/uploads/erp_mmr.pdf
Specifically:
“This exhaustive analysis of the experimental RT-qPCR data generated by the Unigenetics laboratory demonstrates persistent and widespread contamination with F-gene DNA. As a result there is no credible evidence for the presence of either MV genomic RNA or
mRNA in the GI tracts (or blood samples) of any patient investigated by this laboratory. Consequently, this finding excludes any link between MV and, by extension, the MMR vaccine and autism.”
2.ii. If you’d like me to explain any of the big words (such as “credible” and “evidence”) then I’ll be glad to.
2.iii. Wakefield’s suggestion that Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia was (a) found in significantly more children with developmental disorders; and (b) linked to the MMR vaccine; were widely disagreed with
… ILNH was “so common as to be a normal variant in children” (Bartram et al, 1994)
I can go on if you really really want me to.
3. Alright then, from now on I’ll call it “fluffy bunny can’t get the horrible nasty atchoos” instead. Is that better?
4. If you “know 100%” that it was the MMR vaccine that caused your son’s autism, then please provide the medical proof using the form below, or email me the papers personally.
5. My worry is that, let’s say for the sake of argument, your first child is the one with autism, does that mean the rest of your children are running around infecting the rest of the herd, er, fluffy bunnies?
6. Watch this space? Where? What’s going to happen? Do tell!
May 18th, 2009 at 11:58 am
You might also want to read: http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/596476
“Vaccines and Autism: A Tale of Shifting Hypotheses” (Gerber & Offit, 2009). It contains links to a wide summary of papers about various vaccination stories.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Here’s the final bit (I’ve been busy. Sue me.)
“…There have in fact been NO STUDIES WHAT SO EVER done…”
Autism and measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine: no epidemiological evidence for a causal association
MMR and autism: further evidence against a causal association
Mumps, measles, and rubella vaccine and the incidence of autism recorded by general practitioners: a time trend analysis
Time Trends in Autism and in MMR Immunization Coverage in California
“the only studies done were on adults”
Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links With Immunizations
No Evidence for A New Variant of Measles-Mumps-Rubella-Induced Autism
Measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and bowel problems or developmental regression in children with autism: population study
OK, FrMaRiRoLu, I’m bored now.
You may come back to this website once you’ve read the above.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
It may be worth differentiating between “There have been no studies done” and “I’ve never heard of any studies being done therefore they can’t possibly exist / I’ve never heard of studies being done on kids therefore they can’t possibly exist / I just couldn’t be arsed to do any research into the subject before deciding that having a child with autism makes me better qualified to comment on this than any medical professional anywhere, anytime, about anything to do with autism”.
I’m truly sorry that your child has autism – whatever the cause. But jumping on the panicwagon helps no-one, and has the potential to cause an awful lot of harm to other mums with children.
The research cited above is a fascinating look at causal linking and I highly recommend it to anyone.
May 18th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
You are one cheeky insulting b*stard, how the f*ck do you think you are talking to me like that. I take it by your remarks, you are either A. a smartarse student who thinks he knows it all, OR a parent who has nothing l=else to do with their time than insult other people, i pity your kids BTW
I have read through all the ‘reports’ you have posted and as i said before there is NOT one study, these links are pure observations, taken from school and nursery records and taken from special needs disablity records, do you even KNOW what a proper study is? Let me enlighten you to what is needed to conclusively prove there is a connection, seeing as you are so f*cking stupid.
They need to monitor children almost from birth, they need to regularly examine these said children to check for signs of autism or bowel disease, they need to check them just BEFORE the vaccine is administered and they need to follow that child for YEARS afterwards because not all children with acquired autism show signs straight away, oh and there have to be a LOT of children participating in this study, from all races and backgrounds.
As for the links posted, i bet the people who wrote the articles have never laid eyes on the people they are reporting about.
May 18th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
commonsensical, Read my above post, i didn’t say there have been no REPORTS written, i said there have been no proper STUDIES done, and i am right, let me, have you read the Mary Scanlon report??
Had you read it, it would have even made you think that there was something the government are hiding.
Trust me, i have been studying this for about 11 years no, i may not be medically trained but i am not stupid and i DO know my own child.
Oh another thing i didn’t mention in my first post, the ‘medical experts’ the govenment employed to assess the drug companies found them to be producing safe vaccines do you know WHY they found them to be safe??
If you don’t i will enlighten you and this is is down to fact and documented proof. You see it’s not bad for a person who ‘just couldn’t be arsed to do any research into the subject before deciding that having a child with autism makes me better qualified to comment on this than any medical professional anywhere, anytime, about anything to do with autism”.
‘
May 18th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
You make me livid. Children are losing their lives because of ignorant people like you.
Please, get abreast of the medical literature which proves the safety of MMR. Please, it’s not just your own children that are more likely to die because of your inaction, it is others to.
Please, for the safety of every one, *please* get your kids vaccinated.
It’s horrible that your child has autism, it truly is. But autism is not caused by vaccines.
Here’s just one of coutnless links I feel you should read.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/05/04/antivax-kills/
I will admit, I’ve not read Mary Scanlon’s report. Please supply me with a link.
This is my second draft. I was so cross I’m afraid my first one was childish with lots of swearing in it. But dammit, I was shaking with rage.
You may not be stupid, you are certainly ignorant.
For fucks sack.
May 18th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
D’oh, my apologies, I meant to delete those last to lines.
Sorry FrMaRiRoLu, I didn’t meant to swear at you.
May 18th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
‘You make me livid. Children are losing their lives because of ignorant people like you.’ NO HEALTHY CHILD HAS DIED IN THIS COUNTRY FROM MEASLES SINCE 1982, SO, Join the club, you make me livid ignorant people like you who believe everything they read are the stupid ones, i KNOW my child was damaged by the MMR, he was developing normally, passed all his milestones and had a HV assessment 5 weeks before the vaccine, in that report, it said ‘He was saying between 15 and 20 clear words, making good progress and is very sociable, no concerns’ 5 weeks later my son had his vaccination, he screamed all that night, the surgery told me to fan him down and give him calpol!!!, within 4 days, yes 4 DAYS my son had stopped speaking, stopped eating, he withdrew into himself, he didn’t recognise me or his daddy and screamed when anyone came near him, he was like a rabbit caught in headlights. My son did not speak again until he was almost 4. We asked the HV to reassess him again, this was approx 6 months after the vaccine, in that report, it was said, he was making babbling sounds and seemed frightened when approached. Big difference from the first report, eh? Had this been your 15 month old child, what conclusion would you have came to? Would you say it was totally coincidental? would you CHANCE the same thing happening to your other children? Beleive me, our first child had her MMR and she was fine, we had no reservations about giving it to our son.
As for the Mary Scanlon report, i’ll try find the link but basically, The government employed her to look into the MMR/Autism debate and to post back her findings. The report took approx 1 year to complete, the findings were and i quote ‘ i can neither confirm, nor deny any link so it is my suggestion that a pre-MMR test be done on every child, this will look for signs of autism prior to the vaccination being administered’
The scheme went ahead, four months later, it was stopped, the reason being that the money could be better spent on such things as ‘child poverty’ strange eh? what is the bet they found a link and pulled the plug, i certainly cannot find any other reason for the quick withdrawl. can you?
You said ‘Please, get abreast of the medical literature which proves the safety of MMR. Please, it’s not just your own children that are more likely to die because of your inaction, it is others to.’ Sorry, but NOTHING has been proved the safety of MMR, FACT
Excuse me, but when we were children, did we not used to have measles parties? when a child caught measles, all the local children would mingle with that child to catch measles and therefore get ammunity??? Oh and by the way only Between 20% & 50% of people who are vaccinated don’t get resistance to the disease against which they have been immunised! so for the sake of 20% – 50% i will not put my other children at risk, you are basically saying that over 2,000 parents are wrong? 2,000 parents who know their own children.
Besides, if you are so worried about it, get your children vaccinated, they will be ammune.
Found this, interesting reading
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6970525.stm
“We hadn’t had any deaths from measles since the early 1990s but unfortunately we had one death last year and we don’t want any more.”
The one death, The boy, who was suffering from an underlying lung condition, had not had the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine.
No healthy person has actually died from the measles in years. On the other hand, a child with autism has a lifetime disability, with no cure and no chance of a normal life. I’d take my chances with measles, other that chance having another child with autism, anyday
So please do not insult me and trying to make me feel bad because it will not work on me or any of the other 2,000 other families inflicted with this horrible, heartbreaking condition
May 18th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
Point 1: I’m not a student. I’m a working professional with a sound knowledge of vaccinations etc due to the extensive work with medical charities I have been part of. Point 2: I’m female. Talk about prejudice, woman! But then I shouldn’t be surprised that you are leaping to your own tailor-made conclusions; it’s the only consistent trait you have demonstrated thus far.
Of course you know your own child. Nobody is disputing this. What I dispute is your knowledge of medicine. You say that in order to classify these links as a study, not an observation:
“They need to monitor children almost from birth, they need to regularly examine these said children to check for signs of autism or bowel disease, they need to check them just BEFORE the vaccine is administered and they need to follow that child for YEARS afterwards because not all children with acquired autism show signs straight away, oh and there have to be a LOT of children participating in this study, from all races and backgrounds.”
Was your child subjected to these tests? Was your child part of any wider group study or trial for the vaccine?
No.
You leaped to the conclusion that the vaccine was to blame and so blinded yourself to any other conclusion, totally disregarding your own criteria for working out whether the vaccine is to blame.
It’s natural to want to find a reason why your child is ill. And if you’re that determined, you’ll find something. That doesn’t mean that it’s the right reason; it’s just the first semi-credible one you leaped to.
I don’t dispute that you love your child(ren) and that you want to do right by them. Which is why it’s so important to know the facts, not the half-cocked drivel concocted by a group of conspiracy theorists with nothing better to do than sit and create newer and shinier tinfoil hats.
Did it ever occur to you that the study you cite was dropped because there was no link to find? Again, you leaped to a conclusion and so blinded yourself to other possibilities.
Ever heard of Occam’s razor? The simplest explanation is often the correct one. This means that if the Govt drops a study into causal linkage, then most likely it’s because there’s nothing to find, not because there’s a massive conspiracy to keep the truth from We, The People.
If your arguments weren’t centred around scientifically unsound data and a massive (but understandable) emotional bias, and if your “evidence” stretched further than “I know my own child therefore my authority on the subject is INDISPUTABLE”, then we wouldn’t be coming down on you so hard. But your ignorance is dangerous and your logic flawed. And that is a dangerous position for a mother to be in.
May 18th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
“i [sic] KNOW [sic] my child was damaged by the MMR [vaccine]”
How do you know? Because of the time coincidence? In the 17th century it was believed bad smells caused the black death, due to the two’s proximity.
You have used a sample size of 1 and the proximity of your son’s MMR vaccination and your son’s first signs of autism to prove MMR causes autism.
“what is the bet they found a link and pulled the plug, i certainly cannot find any other reason for the quick withdrawl. can you?”
Maybe because it was better spent on child poverty than pandering to some middle-classed new-age Surrey Chelsea-tractors mothers’ disinclination to do “unnatural” things to protect their children. Mind you, you could have a point, it is certainly in the government’s interest to have more autistic children and the assoicated costs that go along with that for the NHS.
“Had this been your 15 month old child, what conclusion would you have came to?”
Are you implying by this that if it had been our own child we would imply that was the cause was the vaccine but wouldn’t if it was not our son? Are you implying that the fact it is “your own flesh and blood” means you differently interpret the situation and suspend rationality?
“Sorry, but NOTHING has been proved the safety of MMR, FACT”
PUTTING THINGS IN CAPITALS DOES NOT MSKE IT TRUE.
It has been shown (I’m not going to say proved, I’m a mathematician so dislike that word in scientific and medicinal contexts) however that not giving youngsters the MMR vaccine does cause them harm due to reduction in herd immunity (sorry you don’t like this term, tough shit) and increased cases of the 3 diseases. Also similaly, nothing has shown the MMR vaccine is dangerous and furthermore, nothing has shown not gining the MMR vaccine is advantageous. I’d say that’s a win for giving out the MMR vaccine.
“Excuse me, but when we were children, did we not used to have measles parties? when a child caught measles, all the local children would mingle with that child to catch measles and therefore get ammunity[sic]???”
Excuse, me did we not used to send children to the work house, hang them for theft and let them live in poverty? Take off your rose tinted spectacles, nostalgia just isn’t what it used to be. I personally believe it is etter for children to get immunity from a vaccination and not from the disease to do the huge risks in giving a child a disease. Do you not? Are you the sort of person who gets kicks out of seeing their child get ill? (Sorry, maybe that was a bit too far but this topic makes me fucking angry)
“Between 20% & 50% of people who are vaccinated don’t get resistance to the disease against which they have been immunised! so for the sake of 20% – 50% i will not put my other children at risk”
Shown how? That is all.
Maybe not all, this is hard to show as fortunately measles, mumps and rubella still have fairly low incidence rates.
“you are basically saying that over 2,000 parents are wrong? 2,000 parents who know their own children.”
I don’t know about SC, but I certainly am. Comments like that hold no water, 2,000 parents are the minority by far. Millions of anericans believe the bible literally, I’d say they were wrong. Just because 2,000 people believe something doesn’t make it right; a lot more than 2,000 people believed in the Nazi cause (yes, Godwin’s Law, fuck off) but that didn’t make them right. My point is 2,000 parents having this belief does not make it better, I wouldn’t mind betting around 2,000 parents think it’s alright to abuse their kids, I’d say they are wrong. (But, no, that’s completely different…)
“Besides, if you are so worried about it, get your children vaccinated, they will be ammune[sic].”
I don’t currently have children but when I do, don’t worry I will, unless there is a better vaccination which lines more “ducks” up at once, then I’ll go for that.
“No healthy person has actually died from the measles in years. On the other hand, a child with autism has a lifetime disability, with no cure and no chance of a normal life. I’d take my chances with measles, other that chance having another child with autism, anyday”
No-one has ever shown the MMR vaccine causes autism, I’d much rather take the chance with the vaccince than risk my child dying of measles, mumps or rubella; or for that matter of my grandchild being blind from my daughter getting rubella in pregnancy.
Or am I not allowed the argument that way round?
The claimed incidence rate of autism from the MMR vaccine is tiny, lower than incidence rates of the diseases used to be prior to vaccination.
“No healthy person has actually died from the measles in years.”
And why the fuck do you think that is? Modern medicine perchance? Modern medicine such as the MMR vaccination.
“So please do not insult me and trying to make me feel bad because it will not work on me or any of the other 2,000 other families inflicted with this horrible, heartbreaking condition”
I agree, children having autism isn’t a great situation, but don’t just blame it on MMR, because that was around the same time. Maybe that was the age the symptons of autism began to show, I admit this is just wild conjecture (a bot like blaming the MMR vaccine).
My point?
The whole MMR issue was based on some pretty leaky evidence. “Research” in South Africa has shown that a vitamin C rich diet fights AIDS and HIV perfectly well. If, however, someone I know contracts this awful disease, I’ll tell to go straight for the anti-retrovirals.
May 18th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
The suggestion commonsensical was a know it all student; are you anti-intellectual? A lot of people study this, just because someone is a student would that make their opinion inferior? Even if they were studying the topic?
When I was at uni I had a lot of friends who were studying related areas, plus they had a lot of time to look into things in detail/had access to reports very easily.
May 18th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Anti-intellectual, roflmao, i don’t think so, just because they study it at uni, does not mean they are right, does it? if they can prove conclusively that the mmr is safe, please show me the lab results, i’ll gladly pass them onto Andy Wakefield
May 18th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
Ermm, 1. where did i ever say you were male? nowhere, stop cunjuring up things,
Do any of you know the ingredients of a vaccine? Do any of you know what this very acidic vaccination does to the myelin in the brain, it has never been denied that this vaccine is very acidic.
Here are a few quotes from some top doctors
“When both brain & the immune
system are undergoing rapid
development.It is notable that
a close temporal relationship
in the exposure to more than
one of these infections during
periods of susceptibility,may
compound both the risk &
severity of Autism”.
(Dr Andrew Wakefield)
(4) Between 20% & 50% of people who are vaccinated don’t get resistance to the disease against which they have been immunised! “Most doctors and nurses have
no idea of the damage they
are doing to a childs body,
mind and immune system,
when they administer
vaccinations ”
(Dr Vernon Coleman 2007)
“My own personal view is that
vaccines are worthless.I will
NOT allow myself to be
vaccinated again”.
(Prof Vernon Coleman)
“The only safe vaccine is a
vaccine that is never used”.
(Dr.James A.Shannon, National Institute of Health)
Now these are people who know what they are talking about.
‘How do you know? Because of the time coincidence? In the 17th century it was believed bad smells caused the black death, due to the two’s proximity.’
It could be called coincidence had my son not been developing normally but he was and lost everything within a matter of days, THAT is not coincidence, that is something from the outside world doing it to him. Had my son been born with autism, i would have accepted that, had i not thought the mmr was to blame, again, i could have accepted that too, but after speaking to most of the parents at my son’s school, out of the 21 i spoke to, more than halk said their child was born with it, no questions asked, they noticed from about 6-8 months something wasn’t quite right, out of the rest, some weren’t sure and there were about 5 or 6, like me, who knew, call it maternal instinct, i don’t know.
I may not have the degrees you lot say you have but i have life experience, first hand experience in seeing my child disintigrade suddenly before our eyes, and THAT is something all your studying and ‘charity work’ (pah) can’t give you
Oh and btw, if you live in a civilised society, you daughter and grand daughter will be routinely given the rubella vaccine in her teenage years, making her completely ammune
May 18th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
My point was more your assumption that a student was a shit-stirrer that knows fuck all. I never claimed they were right, just that some people may actually study this so some students may know a bit more about it that you, me or anyone else on this thread.
Also, if you can prove to me MMR makes one iota of difference to autism, I will gladly pass that on to anyone I deem relevant.
You say prove conclusively, that will never be done, nothing in any field of medicine will ever be proved conclusively. Can you prove to me conclusively smoking causes cancer? No, you can’t; doesn’t mean I’m going to start a 60 a day habit though.
The whole MMR farce has led to deaths, the whole measles party issue and putting children a risk of potentially deadly diseases where there is a perfectly safe preventitive measure is (in my opinion) bordering on child abuse.
May 18th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Alrighty then, I’ve a clearer head now that I’ve prepared myself to do battle with a deluded ignorant that fails to see facts, granted for very emotional reasons. I know that more rational people have replied above, but I’d also like to add my own points.
“‘You make me livid. Children are losing their lives because of ignorant people like you.’ NO HEALTHY CHILD HAS DIED IN THIS COUNTRY FROM MEASLES SINCE 1982, “
Easy there. NO NEED TO SHOUT. Firstly, I highlighted a child that had died because of anti vax ignorance in another country. That’s a mother who has lost there child forever. You still have yours, even if they’re autistic.
“SO, Join the club, you make me livid ignorant people like you who believe everything they read are the stupid ones,”
Gimme a break. Who’s the one that asked for your side of the story and that Mary Scanlon report? I’m happy to read the stuff. I’ve even read the first Andrew Wakefield paper. Have you? Just curious.
“ i KNOW my child was damaged by the MMR, he was developing normally, passed all his milestones and had a HV assessment 5 weeks before the vaccine, in that report, it said ‘He was saying between 15 and 20 clear words, making good progress and is very sociable, no concerns’ 5 weeks later my son had his vaccination, he screamed all that night, the surgery told me to fan him down and give him calpol!!!, within 4 days, yes 4 DAYS my son had stopped speaking, stopped eating, he withdrew into himself, he didn’t recognise me or his daddy and screamed when anyone came near him, he was like a rabbit caught in headlights. My son did not speak again until he was almost 4. We asked the HV to reassess him again, this was approx 6 months after the vaccine, in that report, it was said, he was making babbling sounds and seemed frightened when approached. Big difference from the first report, eh? “
Anecdotes are not evidence.Yes it’s occurred at a similar time. This is why (and I’ll come to them later) studies take the data from lots of different children all over the country, and look at their outcomes, and (references later) they show MMR to be safe.
“Had this been your 15 month old child, what conclusion would you have came to? Would you say it was totally coincidental? would you CHANCE the same thing happening to your other children? “
Yes. I’ve read a lot about the subject and would be mightily upset; would spend a lot of my time helping autistic charities; and would make sure each and every single child I had was vaccinated, and I would gladly still sing from the roof tops that vaccines are safe and that every child should have the vaccines in the childhood immunization programme. I would also send these as gifts: http://tinyurl.com/c9kfec
“As for the Mary Scanlon report, i’ll try find the link but basically, The government employed her to look into the MMR/Autism debate and to post back her findings. The report took approx 1 year to complete, the findings were and i quote ‘ i can neither confirm, nor deny any link so it is my suggestion that a pre-MMR test be done on every child, this will look for signs of autism prior to the vaccination being administered’
The scheme went ahead, four months later, it was stopped, the reason being that the money could be better spent on such things as ‘child poverty’ strange eh? what is the bet they found a link and pulled the plug, i certainly cannot find any other reason for the quick withdrawl. can you?”
Yes. A different reason: given the overwhelmingly large quantity of scientific evidence that shows just how safe MMR is, it appeared like a massive waste of cash. Granted, in a surprising move from the Government (but maybe motivated because they care about children’s lives) they diverted it else where to better spend the funds.
“You said ‘Please, get abreast of the medical literature which proves the safety of MMR. Please, it’s not just your own children that are more likely to die because of your inaction, it is others to.’ Sorry, but NOTHING has been proved the safety of MMR, FACT”
Beg to differ.
Let’s turn the tables a little though. Please can you show me credible evidence (not your anecdotes) that MMR is bad. Also, what are the increased risks of autism? How do they compare to the potential mortality/disabilities that could be brought on by measles, mumps and rubella? Just to be clear, there is no link between MMR and autism, but even if there was, if the chance of my child ending up dead by not giving the vaccine was higher than the chance of my child getting autism from a vaccine, I’d choose autism. Would you?
“Excuse me, but when we were children, did we not used to have measles parties?”
No. My parents were sensible.
“ Oh and by the way only Between 20% & 50% of people who are vaccinated don’t get resistance to the disease against which they have been immunised! so for the sake of 20% – 50% i will not put my other children at risk, you are basically saying that over 2,000 parents are wrong? 2,000 parents who know their own children.”
Two points. Popularity doesn’t mean something is correct. Secondly, please can you let me know where you got the above figures? I do like to read as much data as I can get my hands on, it allows me to form my own opinion.
Oh, and yeah, I totally think 2,000 parents are wrong. I also think 1 billion Catholics are wrong. Again, let’s turn the tables, there are many more parents that believe (rightly) MMR to be safe. You’re saying they’re wrong. We have a difference of opinion, fortunately we have a great many doctors, epidemiologists etc looking into this. Their conclusions clearly show you to be in error.
“Besides, if you are so worried about it, get your children vaccinated, they will be ammune.”
Your above point links in to the next:
You may not like the term “herd immunity”, but, well, it’s the only term I know to describe a type of immunity that occurs when the vaccination of a portion of the population (or herd) provides protection to unprotected individuals. So we’ll use it.
Muslims and Jews don’t like the term Swine Flu. It’s an influenza virus from pigs though. What else can you call it? Some names are always going to grind.
As you point out below, an unvaccinated child with an underlying lung condition died from measles.
“Found this, interesting reading
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6970525.stm
“We hadn’t had any deaths from measles since the early 1990s but unfortunately we had one death last year and we don’t want any more.”
The one death, The boy, who was suffering from an underlying lung condition, had not had the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine.
No healthy person has actually died from the measles in years. “
Now, if there was heard immunity, that child would probably be alive. Indeed, in that article it mentions a child too young to receive the vaccine getting measles (and fortunately recovering. It doesn’t mention who the other child was though. Sorry to be a broken record, but may I have the reference). This is why herd immunity is important. If everyone gets vaccinated, the very young who haven’t had a chance at protection, and those with compromised immune systems (chemotherapy, AIDS etc) can get extra protection by virtue of the pathogens not having any where to live.
“On the other hand, a child with autism has a lifetime disability, with no cure and no chance of a normal life.”
Yes, I’m sure the parents of the child that died. I’m sure they’re comforted to know that their child isn’t autistic and is dead instead because people don’t get their children vaccinated and thus contribute to the population not having herd immunity.
“I’d take my chances with measles, other that chance having another child with autism, anyday”
Yes, but as has been established, MMR doesn’t cause autism, ergo, you can still get to take your chances with autism (as does the rest of the population), and not have to worry about measles (or mumps or rubella too). Everyone’s a winner!
“So please do not insult me and trying to make me feel bad because it will not work on me or any of the other 2,000 other families inflicted with this horrible, heartbreaking condition”
I’m sorry, but you can’t tug at my heart strings either. Autism is bad, I know, but help is available. So’s bereavement counseling. We all have traumas. I lost a friend (and his sister, and his mother) to a drunk driver. I’ve relatives that have died of stroke and cancer. There’s a big bunch of heart ache out there. Not taking the vaccine adds to that.
I said I’d provide references, it seemed fitting to do it after this:
“Anti-intellectual, roflmao, i don’t think so, just because they study it at uni, does not mean they are right, does it? if they can prove conclusively that the mmr is safe, please show me the lab results, i’ll gladly pass them onto Andy Wakefield”
The Cochrane Study, it’s as good to definitive as you’re going to get, and conclusively lays to rest the MMR link. Please read it. If you disagree with it, I’d be interested to hear why:
Plain language summary
Using the combined vaccine for protection of children against measles, mumps and rubella
Measles, mumps and rubella are three very dangerous infectious diseases which cause a heavy disease, disability and death burden in the developing world. Researchers from the Cochrane Vaccines Field reviewed 139 studies conducted to assess the effects of the live attenuated combined vaccine to prevent measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) in children. MMR protects children against infections of the upper airways but very rarely may cause a benign form of bleeding under the skin and milder forms of measles, mumps and rubella. No credible evidence of an involvement of MMR with either autism or Crohn’s disease was found. No field studies of the vaccine’s effectiveness were found but the impact of mass immunisation on the elimination of the diseases has been demonstrated worldwide.
Full text: http://mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD004407/frame.html
Natty little press summary: http://www.cochrane.org/press/MMR_final.pdf
That should hopefully be all that you need to show that your position is wrong. There is no shame in admitting that. However, I’m not sure if you’ll be big enough to admit that you’re wrong.
If you gave me evidence to the contrary of the Cochrane Review, I’d change my mind.
Ball’s in your court. I look forward to seeing your references.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:05 pm
“Ermm, 1. where did i ever say you were male? nowhere, stop cunjuring up things, “
Well, to quote you did say “a smartarse student who thinks he knows it all,” which is gender specific.
“Do any of you know the ingredients of a vaccine? Do any of you know what this very acidic vaccination does to the myelin in the brain, it has never been denied that this vaccine is very acidic.”
Yes, but the vaccine is injected into one’s blood stream, not the brain. Come on, that’s a lame argument.
“Here are a few quotes from some top doctors…
Now these are people who know what they are talking about.”
I would beg to differ, especially given their track record. See my earlier post with the Cochrane review. They obviously do not know what they’re talking about.
Or maybe read this from a Top Doctor ™
http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/
“It could be called coincidence had my son not been developing normally but he was and lost everything within a matter of days, THAT is not coincidence, that is something from the outside world doing it to him.”
But you can’t say that. To be a coincidence, this would have to have happened at the same time. Given the weight of scientific evidence that there is no link between MMR and autism, and that it sounds as if your son developed autism at the time that, well, lots of kids develop autism, it’s unlikely to be the vaccine and more likely to be a coincidence.
“Had my son been born with autism, i would have accepted that, had i not thought the mmr was to blame, again, i could have accepted that too, but after speaking to most of the parents at my son’s school, out of the 21 i spoke to, more than halk said their child was born with it, no questions asked, they noticed from about 6-8 months something wasn’t quite right, out of the rest, some weren’t sure and there were about 5 or 6, like me, who knew, call it maternal instinct, i don’t know.”
Again, anecdote is not evidence. Woo, you spoke to 21 mothers. That’s a big sample.
“I may not have the degrees you lot say you have but i have life experience, first hand experience in seeing my child disintigrade suddenly before our eyes, and THAT is something all your studying and ‘charity work’ (pah) can’t give you”
I don’t doubt that you have first hand experience watching your child develop autism, but it sounds as if you have an inferiority complex. Yes, some of us have degrees (in Animal Science if you care that much). To say “pah” to charity. Well, it beggers belief. See those of us that engage and volunteer in charity work are actively saving lives. So not only does the nonsense you peddle endanger lives, but you also denigrate an activity that could lead to improvements in the world. If we’re going to play heart string top trumps though, how’s about these:
Have you seen relatives deteriorate from cancer before your eyes; how about a very active and dear relative lose it all to a stroke and spend her last month bed ridden, a shadow of her former self; have you witnessed suicide attempts; how about a friend, his sister, mother and father getting run over by a drunk driver with only the father surviving; have you carried a total stranger that was beaten up and bloody to an NHS walk in centre?
Just because some of us went to university and do lots for charity doesn’t mean that we miss out of the harsh reality of the real world and live a sheltered life. Indeed, volunteering for charity is an enriching and rewarding experience. I’d recommend it to everyone, including yourself.
“Oh and btw, if you live in a civilised society, you daughter and grand daughter will be routinely given the rubella vaccine in her teenage years, making her completely ammune”
Please, it’s immune. This last bit also confuses me. Are we for or against vaccines, or is it just MMR you are currently misinformed about?
May 18th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
I’ve just noted, my previous post I mentioned above is awaiting moderation. I posted it at May 18th, 2009 at 9:58 pm. It was a bit long.
I nthe mean time, the key bit I was refering to was this:
I said I’d provide references, it seemed fitting to do it after this:
“Anti-intellectual, roflmao, i don’t think so, just because they study it at uni, does not mean they are right, does it? if they can prove conclusively that the mmr is safe, please show me the lab results, i’ll gladly pass them onto Andy Wakefield”
The Cochrane Study, it’s as good to definitive as you’re going to get, and conclusively lays to rest the MMR link. Please read it. If you disagree with it, I’d be interested to hear why:
Plain language summary
Using the combined vaccine for protection of children against measles, mumps and rubella
Measles, mumps and rubella are three very dangerous infectious diseases which cause a heavy disease, disability and death burden in the developing world. Researchers from the Cochrane Vaccines Field reviewed 139 studies conducted to assess the effects of the live attenuated combined vaccine to prevent measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) in children. MMR protects children against infections of the upper airways but very rarely may cause a benign form of bleeding under the skin and milder forms of measles, mumps and rubella. No credible evidence of an involvement of MMR with either autism or Crohn’s disease was found. No field studies of the vaccine’s effectiveness were found but the impact of mass immunisation on the elimination of the diseases has been demonstrated worldwide.
Full text: http://mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD004407/frame.html
Natty little press summary: http://www.cochrane.org/press/MMR_final.pdf
That should hopefully be all that you need to show that your position is wrong. There is no shame in admitting that. However, I’m not sure if you’ll be big enough to admit that you’re wrong.
If you gave me evidence to the contrary of the Cochrane Review, I’d change my mind.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Me again!
Okely dokely, here we go – a random list of points to throw out here.
1. Please justify your 50 to 80% success rate. The figure I have here is 95%.
2. Please don’t call Wakefield a “top doctor”. His paper was based on a study of TWELVE children. That’s TWELVE children. This, as the mathematician above will tell you, cannot be enough to make any assumptions. Not only that, but see my point above about contaminants in the original paper.
Also, I hardly think that paying parents for children’s blood samples (allegedly) is by any means the act of a “top doctor”.
3. The triple dose vaccine has (discounting autism) similar incidence of side effects as each of the single vaccines (i.e. 3 jabs = 3 chances of side effects). Now, given that there must be a gap between giving each vaccine (and therefore a chance that a child could develop either of the other two diseases), in which order do you give them? Measles first, then rubella? Rubella first then mumps second?
4. Dr Shannon might well have said:
“The only safe car is one that is never driven”, or “The only safe painkiller is one that is never taken”. So I shall take that with a pinch of salt.
5. Fine. Stop immunising your children. No skin off my nose (happily vaccinated). But do be aware, that pre-measles vaccine, there were between 300,000 and 400,000 cases of measles a year (4,000 cases of rubella too).
Fatality rates for measles: 3 in 1000 (in developed countries. In poorer countries it’s about 280 in 1000).
Mumps: 10% of cases can lead to meningitis (meningoencephalitis); a 27% chance of spontaneous abortion in pregnant women; and about 15% of males end up with testicular atrophy (i.e. withered bollocks).
Rubella: 20% chance of spontaneous abortion. And for those poor bastards born with rubella, well, basically they’re fucked.
So, y’know, just let me know if you’re prepared to pay the extra tax to support the NHS (remembering that children don’t pay the 7 quid prescription fee).
Nice to know you’re exposing your non-vaccinated children to this (including, if we’re to believe your 20-50% failure rate, exposing other people’s children to these diseases too).
6. Just for shits and giggles, let’s look at some other vaccines, shall we?
Meningococcus (type C). Kills pretty much instantly. Pre-vaccine: 60 deaths/year. Post-vaccine: one death every year or more.
Hib. Really fucks you up, also causes meningitis. Pre-vaccine: 800 cases/year. Post-vaccine: 12.
Pneumococcus: the new vaccine has prevented about 900 infections since it was introduced in 2006, and prevented about 50 deaths.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
Oh, and in case it’s a specific worry about Thimerosal/Thiomersal, let me know and I’ll provide some more reading.
And finally, I’ll look for the Scanlon report — just so I’ve got the right person, is this the same Mary Scanlon who sent out fake support letters for her candidacy in the 2006 Moray by-election?
As in the same Mary Scanlon against whom the Chief Medical Officer lodged a formal complaint about her behaviour?
The same Mary Scanlon who told the press in 2002 that incidences of autism where continually going up and linking it to MMR vaccine, despite the steady decline in MMR vaccine uptake since 1994?
The Mary Scanlon who told us that the then Health Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, was in favour of separate jabs, which Sturgeon denied?
That Mary Scanlon?
May 19th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Sheesh, I go away for a couple of days and miss a corker of a debate*. I almost feel for FrMaRiRoLu because she’s shouting rubbish against a well thought out and logical argument and our current form of “society” she should at least be allowed to claim that her human rights require that her badly thought out opinion has more weight than actual science.
Hey, FrMaRiRoLu, why not get yourself a publicist (I hear that Max Clifford has a bit more spare time these days) and then get lots of articles in the ‘papers’ which bleat on about how you have been victimized and discriminated against because you are thick yet have fought intelligence at every corner to get your message of ignorance heard**.
Hope this helps, back to the beach for me.
* Actually it’s not a debate because in a debate you normally expect two sides to have something intelligent to say.
** That’s ‘heard’, love, not ‘herd; woe betide I use a word that offends you. On a side note please stop using the term ‘woman’ to describe yourself because I know lots of intelligent and lovely women and it is offensive to be for the same word to be used to describe them and you at the same time.
May 19th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
May I draw FraMeBackward’s attention to the following link:
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/build.html
They’re watching you, Frances; maybe we haven’t heard a response from you because the government has already deleted your account for speaking the undeniable truth about vaccines!
Now quick, whilst tinfoil is on buy one get one free from Tesco’s!
May 21st, 2009 at 1:13 pm
And is that “Top” Dr Wakefield the one who’s currently up before the GMC’s Fitness To Practice Panel? The same “Top” Dr Wakefield whose co-authors stated “We wish to make it clear that in this paper no causal link was established between (the) vaccine and autism”?
Or some other “Top” Dr Wakefield who *isn’t* being paid by the legal representatives of parents who believed their children had been harmed by MMR?
May 21st, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Ah, you mean the “Top” Andrew Wakefield, who received £435,000 in legal aid?